Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to earthfeed From Soil to Shelf, where packaging expert and yoga enthusiast Kelly Williams helps small and medium brands transition to sustainable packaging. This podcast is brought to you by EarthFirst Compostable Packaging Solutions.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Hi, I'm your host Kelly Williams with the earthfeed podcast From Soil to Shelf. And with me today we have Diana Thomas, who's the sustainability director for Biologic. And the title of today's talk is Myth Busting what Works and doesn't in the Compost Pile. So with that, I'd like to introduce Diana and let you say a little bit about your background and we'll get started.
[00:00:36] Speaker A: Hi. Thanks so much for having me, Kelly. I'm super excited for today's conversation.
I've grown up in the world of sustainability, starting off with my humble beginnings on a farm in Oregon. I think that's really growing up on a vineyard and winery. What instilled a real appreciation for the world around us Today I graduated from University of Washington with a focus in corporate social responsibility and sustainable program management.
During that time I actually had the opportunity to work for a somewhat well known company called Red Bull and really got the understandings of marketing and the importance of telling the story. So I've worked for the last 10 years in, oh gosh, all sorts of sustainable program management and communications and really what I live for is understanding and explaining the why to people.
Oftentimes when we're thinking about sustainability, it seems like certain things are no brainers and some absolutely are, but others really require an additional layer of thought or additional question asking to understand what's going on there. So yeah, I love working for a small company called Biologic. We produce bioplastic resins based on starch. And before that I worked as the sales accountant for a small known certification agency for compostables called the Compost Manufacturing alliance, also known as cma. So it's great to be here.
[00:02:11] Speaker B: And it was at CMA that I first met you and I will say I've seen you do magic in educating large diverse groups with various levels of understanding this world and you do a very good job. And I think that is a lot of what we need right now because it kind this seems like we have different tracks of, of of industry verticals. So you've got a compost industry that has continued to emerge and develop and there's a reason they're sold out a year in advance, many of them. And then you have this other piece of we've, we're putting too much food waste in the landfill and we have all of this post consumer stuff and food service stuff to deal with and we're trying to careen one industry into another and understanding how those come together and why. I think this is going to be a really fascinating conversation about what does the pile like, what does work well in it. So where would you like to start?
[00:03:05] Speaker A: You know, I love the fact that you brought in the food topic because that is so important when we think about compost, Compostables. You know, even though I've worked in various waste industries, I actually got into the waste line through a passion for food and food systems.
That's a whole other topic of conversation. But for the listener here today, our food system is not as simple as you think it is. On face value, the fact that we can get food globally all year round is truly remarkable feat. And there's a lot of challenges that come along with that too. So the packaging around food, what happens to food pre consumer before it hits your plate and post consumer, all those scraps that go into the bin, that has a huge impact on our impact on the planet, on our footprint. So if food waste were a country, it would actually be the third largest emitter of carbon emissions after the US and China. That is how big just food waste in general could potentially be for impacting our carbon footprint. And what happens to that food, whether it goes to the landfill or goes to a compost bin, is honestly ultimately determined by what it's wrapped around and the packaging that it's protected in. So that plays a huge role. That's how I've kind of worked my way into, into the bioplastic scene. Because it has a huge importance when it, when we're talking about, you know, the overall impact on the planet.
[00:04:35] Speaker B: And we call this the myth busting episode because there are some myths out there. And I've seen it even recently as last week at a specialty paper conference. There is still this, this divisiveness between paper and plastics. And then let's say, okay, plastics, yes, we have a problem with fossil based plastics, but bioplastics are not enemies to the paper world. And to see a lot of still that old time tug of war between the two, and I think you can provide some great insights into that. It's not one or the other, it's how you bring them together and for all the right reasons. So maybe you can share some of your experiences.
[00:05:14] Speaker A: Absolutely.
So if there's one thing I can impart on you today, it's that sustainability is not a silver bullet. There's no simple answer. When it comes to how we can better improve our impact on the planet, sustainability choices often comes with trade offs, unintended consequences, or what are better known as externalities. So right now there's this huge consumer perception that paper and wood are better for the planet. And it makes sense on the face of it, right? It's a natural source of material, it is renewable.
It doesn't come with any inherent chemicals or concerning additives like so many of plastics do today. The larger implications of our overall ecosystem health on a global scale if we were to transition to a fully paper, fully wood packaging economy, are detrimental on so many different levels. And I'm not saying this just because I work for a bioplastics company. I've been saying this for years across all my different sustainability management positions. When I was at cma, for instance, there was that kind of same transition of thought where even composters say, oh, paper's just wood. Yeah, we'll take it into the compost, it'll be fine. The reality is paper is not just paper. And a lot of paper products, like those little molded fiber kind of those thicker clam shells that we get from restaurants, those have a huge amount of chemical additives. They have a huge amount of water and material inputs that go into them. So today I kind of want to talk about just like the pros and the cons of, and what the reality would be of transitioning to a fully paper, fully wood packaging economy. And, you know, from there maybe we can touch base on, you know, bioplastics, pros and cons, and, you know, maybe even talk about the plastics in general, because it is a crisis. There's, there is no reality against that. Like, we do have a plastics crisis. There is a huge amount of materials that is being uncollected and leaking into the environment and causing long term detrimental havoc. But we want to pause and ask ourselves, why are plastics so ubiquitous? To start, it's because they're incredibly efficient.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: Exactly.
They're definitely efficient at what they do. They do a good job. Yet we still average. What's the statistic? The average consumer is responsible for 30% of the food waste. So no matter how good the barrier of the package is, we still waste a lot of food, I think is the takeaway there. So how do we make it more inviting to just let that food waste go into making high quality compost so we can keep making good food? Right, that's, that's the ultimate goal. And there is a perception, you're right, that that the more cellulosics you put into it the better. But it's not always the case. In addition to even the chemicals that are used, the current the way paper is made, the craft process is one of the largest users of electricity and fresh water. So it's not the ideal replacement for that much fossil plastic. So I think to your point is, if I hear you correctly, is you got to find the best of both and drive new developments across both. Because what I'm seeing, I'm curious if you've seen the same, is that for the desire for recyclability that they want, that there's a desire to use as much fiber as possible to have the repulpability to claim recyclability.
But you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater because you need those plastics to get the performance. So if you can bring the two together, how is it any different than the polyethylene coated paper board, your cereal boxes, your frozen meals? High graphic packaging is still one of the largest sources of contamination, whether it's a compost facility or a mechanical recycling facility.
[00:09:17] Speaker A: You're spot on there, Kelly. It's not easy. And honestly, if I were a packaging designer, I would probably hate my life a little bit more because there are so many different factors you need to take into consideration, right? You need to make it shelf stable for a long time. You need to make it breathable, but not too breathable. You need to allow it to retain its structure to not, you know, off gas. You also need that thing to break down, whether it be in the landfill or the compost when that time comes around too. That's one huge reason why I don't think all paper or all plastic is ever going to be a reality. We need to find a way where we can make the two work together in ways that meet all the needs of today's consumer goods, but also allow for that microbial breakdown at the end of life as well. So I would say it needs to all be compostable. Specifically when we're talking about food and food related packaging. Now the exception to that is like the cardboard boxes that your cereal comes in because that already has a great lane to be recycled in in our recycling infrastructure today. But the bag that that comes in, that your cereal actually comes in, the little to go convenient containers of grab and go food at the grocery store, everywhere, we're utilizing traditional plastics today because of their efficiency. That's where I really see a shift towards bioplastics and towards compostable packaging in general. So I'll start off and I'll actually back up a little bit more. So when I was at cma, people that aren't aware of cma, they have a really unique system for certifying compostables where in addition to meeting standard lab requirements for compostability, they actually conduct a field test as well. So they take a sample of the item, actually place it in a real world composting industry and see if it breaks down in the time that it takes that composter to process compost. And believe it or not, plastics, bioplastics specifically, not traditional plastics by any means, they broke down fantastically in all of those field tests, which are typically much more challenging to pass than a standard lab test. It was the wood and the paper based items that had a much more challenging time composting in the time frame that most industrial composters process in.
[00:11:51] Speaker B: What do you think that is? Do you think it's the, the additives in the paper or do you think it just takes that much longer for the paper? I've also heard things like if the pile doesn't have enough moisture, that paper is really slow to break down.
[00:12:05] Speaker A: You know, moisture is a huge one.
You know, I'm definitely not the paper scientist, but we, we asked several paper scientists why they, why we were seeing these different results. And it, it's been theorized that the lignin strength, so the length of that microbe microfiber, and I'm not talking plastic microfibers, I'm talking like the actual fiber length at a very, very microscopic level of the wood, those being longer and stronger, it takes those microbes more time to break them down. So I mean, we all know that wood in its bare form is compostable, but it takes so long for those microbes to process them down that in a standard industrial composting line where they're, you know, turning product in anywhere from three to probably six or eight months at the max of it.
It's just not enough time for that paper to actually break down.
[00:13:12] Speaker B: Yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up. The molecular weight does matter because if you think what's the difference between a sugar and a carbohydrate? Molecular weight. What's the difference between a carbohydrate and cellulose molecul? Molecular weight.
[00:13:21] Speaker A: Right.
[00:13:22] Speaker B: Why is PLA harder to break down in a home composting environment? Molecular weight. So you need that, that temperature to help get those chains shorter. And so yeah, I think we, we underestimate how long it takes a branch that falls in your, in your woods, nature will take it back, but it doesn't do it in three months. Yes, but with that, it seems, from my observations, and maybe you can comment on this, is that of the, the three primary, granted there's all sorts of ways of doing compost, but the three primary industrial compost technologies, the newer one is a hotter, what's called a covered pile, and we know from our experience that maybe you can comment on as well, is that bioplastics run really favorably in those systems that they break down really quickly.
[00:14:08] Speaker A: They do, they absolutely do.
Moisture is a huge part of it, as you touched on earlier. So in this most advanced system that is present in today's composting systems here in North America, we call it a covered vessel system, also known as a gore system because they actually cover the pyre with a gore layering that retains the heat but still allows the microbes to breathe.
Bioplastics go great in that system.
We theorize it's because of the temperature levels that are present. So when microbes are doing their thing in that compost pile, there are billions of different organisms that live in that microbial range.
And depending on what microbes are there, the temperature will reach different piles. So that's one way of understanding what microbes are present within that micro community. Now, we have two primary thresholds. We call it mesophilic and thermophilic.
And that's basically at about 160 degrees Fahrenheit thermophilic, START, start living and breathing and really thriving in those higher, hotter temperatures. And we theorize it's those specific kind of category of microbes that are incredibly efficient at breaking down bioplastics.
But to your point, moisture is a huge one. Oxygen is a huge one. Your carbon and nitrogen ratio, the amount of browns you have to the amount of greens you have, they all impact what microbe community is going to kind of take place, take hold in that pile and do the bulk of the, of the breakdown.
[00:16:01] Speaker B: You brought up something that I, that I think might be important that maybe not all of the listeners know is that food would be kind of like a source of nitrogen. Right. For the pile. And for every pound of nitrogen, you have 28 to 31 pounds of carbon, you have to come up with as the fuel source to drive the microorganism activity. And that's where wood or cellulosics and I would assume bioplastics serve that same purpose. Right? It's a, it's a fuel source.
[00:16:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Absolutely. Carbon is a, is a huge key factor when it comes to composting. And that's actually one reason why you don't see more compost operations in places like the middle of our country where there are plains, where there are not easy carbon sources and in areas like that, that's where paper and wood packaging can really fill a need because we need bulk amounts of carbon in order for the process to even undergo.
Yeah, so it's always, it's always finding the right line. It's not necessarily. This is easier. So let's opt for that.
[00:17:07] Speaker B: And I want to talk get your thoughts as well. Somebody asked me a question recently, so I went and got the title of the paper that he sent me and it's, it's a 2024 study in the Journal of Exposure Science and Environmental Epidemiology.
But it basically shows that of the over 14,000 known food contact chemicals that can come from packaging, this study looked, looking at many people, everything from tissue to blood to everything, found 25% of those chemicals in human studies.
So what the question was knowing that bioplastics really to my knowledge, don't use those types of chemicals of yesteryear's ignorance that. Should we be talking more about that? Because there's so much concern about microplastics and food contact chemicals. Rightly so. In the compost. There might be another myth that, that all plastics or all packaging materials come with that same baggage, so to speak, but that's actually not the case.
[00:18:12] Speaker A: Oh my gosh. I'm actually so happy you brought that up because yeah, we aren't talking about this today and we really need to be. I can't speak to other bioplastics, but the bioplastics that biologic manufacturers, it's essentially, it's essentially two ingredients. It is starch and a plant based plasticizer like glycerin or sorbitol. It is incredibly simplistic. It contains none of the harsh concerning chemicals that are so ubiquitous in plastics today, like PFAS or BPA or any other of the unknown. I can't pronounce fillers that are replacing those things in a lot of common plastics today. So if we can advance to a society where bioplastics are the norm, we're not only transitioning plastics to come from a renewable resource, but we don't have the same chemical concerns, we don't have the same large carbon implications like we do if we were to transition to all paper, all wood and overall we can allow trees to retain and do what they do best, which is biodiversity retention, which is filtering our air, which is really preserving the places that you and I love to go visit, like our national parks and our, and our old growth forests to do what they do best for the earth. So it's, it's definitely something we need to talk about more.
[00:19:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I think there, there is a proper pause in clarification that the paper industry is doing its job to be truly sustainable forestry. And I know that they are and it's, it's not mixing them up with the hazards of, you know, intact natural forest landscapes that are being demised. Even with that said, if you were to absorb the immensity of the fossil plastics challenge just in packaging alone, you would have to nearly double the size of the current paper industry. Obviously trees are not the solution for that. So I've always believed that cellulosics are important, but it's really through non forestry agriculture. Like the average harvest index is 48 to 49%. So every, every acre that we grow food, half of it goes to food, the other half is available biomass. Why aren't we using that to, to create these other materials?
[00:20:36] Speaker A: Right. It's so true, you know, and there's so many good potential options there that are not only a great story but really progress, circularity overall, like exploring using food waste as a starch source to create those plastics from.
That's a huge one that I think has some real potential in the world. To your point, like I don't, I definitely don't want to rag on the forestry industry, particularly in the paper industry. I live in Wisconsin. Here we do a fantastic job of managing, you know, stable forests, healthy forests with that paper need.
It's just overall if we think about, oh well, I'm just gonna opt for the paper choice because paper is better for the planet. If everybody were to do that, it's, it would have a huge implication on our water resources, our, our carbon footprints.
It, it's, it's, it's wild. So there, there's definitely a lot to.
[00:21:33] Speaker B: Think about and I'm glad you said carbon footprint. So I'm going to tell you. So I just got back from the, the IFPA show, the International Flower and Produce show, big event, first time, they're very impressive and there was a talk about the future or the future outlook for packaging and sustainability was, it was about packaging. So obviously I went there.
But there was a guy from, I guess it was public, so I can say it was a guy from Taylor Farms that said, and I really, I understand what he's saying, he said, my worry is right now we're on end of life. We're designing for our customers end of life solutions. And I really hope they don't come back in three years and start demanding carbon footprint or that. But at the end of the day, right, it's going to be both. You can't be regenerative in society if you're not thinking of both right now. And I feel like that's another divide between paper and plastic bioplastic that we need to just wash away. Because if we don't bring cellulosics and bioplastics together in very purposeful, thoughtful ways, we're missing what the market's actually asking for without asking us for it at this very moment.
[00:22:50] Speaker A: Oh, it's so true. It's so true. Like, so one of my big things is greenwashing. It's so ubiquitous today. Everybody's doing it because sustainability is actually a real importance to not just a niche consumer now, but the everyday consumer now. And I personally think that it is akin to greenwashing for these large companies to opt for what the consumer perceives as the most sustainable choice rather than actually providing the most sustainable choice. There's a responsibility there to educate, not just appease your consumers. And that's a real challenge in today, a lot of major companies, like Amazon for one, announced that they're shifting to all paper supplemental packaging. So instead of getting those plastic air pillows, they're going to use paper instead. And that has huge implications not only on like their costs, but the reality is that it's not going to protect the product as well. What if your product gets scratched and then you want a new one and you're requiring so many additional materials to go into the return of that item? The cost of manufacturing a new one, the waste of the old one.
Whereas if we were to use like a, a bioplastic pillow, there are home compostable options out there. So it turns into nothing in your own backyard bin. It protects the item better, it's lighter, so it would take less energy and less resources to ship and just transport. You know, I think the, the statistic is it would take seven trucks to send the same amount of paper bags across the country as it would for one truck to send the same amount of plastic bags across the country. So just thinking about it in terms.
[00:24:52] Speaker B: Of efficiency, and I've always wondered the same thing with molded pulp. Like molded pulp is great because it's a lot of, it's non wood, which is great. We're using invasive species or plants we grow on purpose. I think hemp needs to make a big comeback because you couldn't own a farm in the United States of America if you didn't grow hemp in the very beginning. So I feel like that's. And obviously a great carbon catcher plant. But molded pulp has always worried me a little bit because it's largely replacing expanded polystyrene, which is a great utility product sustainability nightmare.
[00:25:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:25] Speaker B: And replacing it with molded pulp is heavier, denser, more trucks. I just feel like, is it. Is it really the solution, or is it a quick way to get out of expanded polystyrene until we can come up with a biopolymer solution? So, I mean, what's been your experience on the molded pulp? Because it seems like it's everywhere now.
[00:25:44] Speaker A: It is. It's everywhere. It's such a. You know, from my personal experience, from my own lived experience, I find it as such a. Such a challenge.
It's a challenge to navigate for a few different reasons. To answer your question quickly, I think it's more like almost like a CD ROM is in the sense that it has a really important purpose right now in the lifetime of things. Probably not going to be around for a huge amount of time if we can find a better solution to those needs specifically. But right now, molded fiber really is the best option we have to replace those old plastic foam clamshells. And it's. It's creating problems specifically at the composter level as well. So to kind of provide some context for examples, a lot of composters and a lot of people are concerned about PLA saying that PLA doesn't actually compost. It won't break down.
What we often see is that it's not the PLA that's breaking down. It is pet, which is more the traditional polymer plastic. And that consumer confusion of simply throwing the wrong thing into the wrong bin creates a lane where that PET makes it to the composter and doesn't break down. We're now living in a state where composters are suspicious of PLA because of this contamination. And I fear that we could reach a similar trajectory when it comes to molded fiber as well. In certain scenarios, it breaks down and it will compost. And in other areas, it either composts mixedly or meaning, like it doesn't fully break down. Or even in certain scenarios like that covered in vessel system we were speaking about, it turns into almost a condensed, hardened puck. And the challenge with any sort of packaging that doesn't break down specifically when we're talking about industrial composting is anything regardless of if it's designed to be compostable or not, that does not compost during that active phase is what we call contamination. So anything that is not organic and does not break down, at the end of the day, composters actually have to sift out and then they send it to the landfill at their own expense. So I do fear a potential reality where composters are intaking a ton of molded fiber because that's the packaging that's sourced and that's what's bringing in the food scraps and it not breaking down. And that same sort of hesitancy of, you know, refusal to accept compostable products translating into that lane as well. Now that's just my own personal fear. Again, it all depends on where you're living, what system you're in. Because composting, just like most of our waste services in the States are regionally based, which means they're going to work differently regardless of different communities.
[00:28:57] Speaker B: And I heard a statistic recently that 230, roughly 230 of the 5,200 industrial compost facilities in the United States except packaging. So that seems like a low number but most people don't understand why that is. And part of it is, and I know those listening can't, but this is a home compostable 4 mil metalized pouch with a zipper. Looks like the fake thing. It's not. It's home compostable. So it's really they don't want contamination is their biggest cry. And I've often wondered, so a little comment on, on that about the 230 out of 5200. And then secondly, what's what someone said to me recently, which really makes a lot of sense, there's one major trigger that could happen and we may be just like one or two more climate events away from from treating this, this, this the situation, like the World Trade center in the formation of the Department of Homeland Security, which is until we get rid of Rickroll, the Recycling conservation or the REC Resource Conservation and Recycling act which basically said all 50 states waste is your problem.
Until we stop treating it as a problem and treating it as a feedstock, a valorizable regenerative feedstock, we're going to be stuck trying to to do something homogeneous across the United States. Yet we are stuck not being able to homogenize the approach in any way.
[00:30:26] Speaker A: It's so true and it's so challenging. For that reason, for a couple of those reasons. Right. I want to touch on the, the bag that you just held up and really emphasize the point that it does look exactly like a non compostable option. And that is one of the, I think biggest roadblocks to really creating a sustainable society today is people are still designing products to be and look and feel like the traditional thing that we know because that's what shows sells. We're expecting a certain thing, a certain way as a consumer. So I better get it that way or else I might not buy it, I might not continue to use it because it looks weird or it looks different or it's not what I'm used to. And that right there, I think is such a huge hindrance because we need to find a way to identify the difference between the pet and the pla, the compostable from the non compostable. And I honestly think that if we were to encourage this to lean into the change is good. Look, I can tell it's different and I can tell it's better for the earth. And, and this is why that, that will gain traction over time. Because again, we are living in a society now where sustainability is actually buying in the average consumer. So if the average consumer can find a way to identify the more sustainable option, then that is great. Now we need to make sure we're not greenwashing along with that because we know there are people that are going to try and take the easy way out and make it seem like a sustainable option when it's not. Which leads back to really my, my whole point of today is you just got to ask the right questions. You got to keep going down that rabbit hole and figuring out what kind of services are in my area, what kind of packaging do I have easily accessible to me, what is my budget like, how, how impactful do I want to be, how much responsibility do I want to take for my waste. All of, all of the right questions inspire the right information.
And honestly I can tell you from experience may turn your entire assumption based life upside down.
[00:32:47] Speaker B: You know, we spent a lot of time about education and the importance of it and I think we're already seeing the cultural shift. And it's because there's a reality, right? The actual epidemic we're all facing globally is our failing human gut biome. And food health is very important to that. That's one of the reasons compost is never going to not be in high demand because that's how we fix decades of synthetic nitrogen to grow our fake food. That's causing us to have real gut issues. So when you start looking at food health, I see that as where is what's helping buoy, which most people don't realize is the number of home compost or not home community compost options are springing up all over the place because people don't want to put their food waste in the garbage can. They want it to go somewhere beneficial. They're seeing the value in eating better. So I kind of feel like culturally, maybe we're already starting to see some of that impact. What do you think?
[00:33:45] Speaker A: I hope so. I really do. And I think that is evidenced by new machines even coming on board that are home composting machines that help you process that material and allow you to kind of do a little bit of that microbial farming at home. But I really do think that that's the. The shift we're seeing and the shift that we can go to.
And I've seen a lot of inspiration of that in small communities as well. In fact, that's where we see regular everyday residents or neighborhood volunteers really stepping up to provide a service for their community. Because, long story short, there's not the economies of scale or the resources available to allow composting infrastructure to exist in that area. We're really seeing local, everyday people processing up to £10,000 a year, I think, in my old small town of Stevens Point, because there's a need for it, and people find the work validating and helpful and empowering. Definitely.
[00:34:50] Speaker B: Where there's a will, there's a way, right? And people are finding a way to do it. So I. I've had so much fun. Look, I'm a big believer that energy finds energy, and doers find doers, and doers get shit done. So I have always valued you, your energy, and you're willing to do what needs to be done to make the world a better, more regenerative place. And with that, I. I thank you for your service to a regenerative world and regenerative living, and hopefully we'll do this again sometime soon. Thank you so much, Diana, for joining me today.
[00:35:22] Speaker A: Thank you so much for your time, Kelly, as always, it really has been a pleasure and I hope to join you again sometime soon. Take care.
This podcast is brought to you by Earth First Compostable Packaging Solutions.
